Wednesday, October 28, 2009

the spectator: no regrets (updated)

Ben Goldacre obligingly provides the cancellation email sent by The Spectator following the collapse of their AIDs denial event. Some high-grade weaselling to note:

I am writing to inform you that, with much regret, the event on “Aids – realism or denial” due to take place on Wednesday 28 October, has been cancelled due to several members of the panel having pulled out at the last minute, leaving us with an unbalanced panel which would not make for a rounded discussion on the film.
The implicit claim here is that the planned panel was "balanced," rather than primarily containing people who a) have no role in AIDs research or b) whose only qualification seems to be in the act of challenging the scientific consensus.

The notion that there can be a "rounded discussion" of the film also presumes that the film is not, at face value, "a globe-trotting pseudo-investigation that should raise the hackles of anyone with even a glancing knowledge of the basic rules of reasoning." Examining the lopsided makeup of the original panel, Richard Wilson observed:
Perhaps one reason for this imbalance is that the real “leading medical authorities” on AIDS will generally refuse to share a platform with AIDS denialists, or engage in debate with them, largely for the same sorts of reasons that evolutionary biologists avoid Creationists, and established historians refuse to debate the Holocaust with the likes of David Irving.
All of which puts the lie to the following lines of the Spectator email:
The purpose of the event which was to have a rational and balanced discussion in an area of science too often characterised by hysteria.
A nice bit of rhetorical re-direction: the people who are concerned about the very real threats to health posed by AIDS denialists are hysterical; the people promoting a film which engages in baseless speculation and misrepresents the views of those interviewed within it are rational and balanced. The email continues:
House of Numbers is a controversial film and we wanted it scrutinised by leading authorities and to follow its showing with real debate encompassing a wide spectrum of opinion. It has proved very difficult to put together a panel which could do this.
That would be because there is there no wide spectrum of opinion: only the overwhelming majority who understand that HIV causes AIDs, and a tiny number who - through fuzzy logic and selective argument - speculate otherwise. Genuine scrutiny by leading authorities would - and has - lead to the film's central questions being dismissed.

To make it very simple, and to quote aidstruth.org:
House of Numbers asks if there is really a scientific consensus about HIV/AIDS. The real answer is: YES. There is an overwhelming scientific consensus, based on incontrovertible evidence, that HIV exists and is the cause of AIDS.
Things are not so clear for The Spectator, who conclude:
We will look at staging this event at a later date with another, more dependable panel.
Apparently, the problem isn't the quality of the evidence but the quality of the panel - which tells you nearly eveything you need to know about those planning the event. So, while The Spectator might be quietly removing the public traces of the event it was forced to cancel, its private commitment to (frankly irresponsible) fringe science continues unabated, without regret.

UPDATE: Joseph Sonnabend - originally invited to join the panel - explains his reasoning for taking part, and voices his own stringent criticism of the film and AIDS denialists.

29 comments:

Dougal said...

My favourite moment of this whole crazy House of Numbers debacle was the discussion on Gimpy's blog, where commenter A sez "do we even know HIV exists?" and commenter B says, no doubt with a heavy sigh, "yes, we sequenced its genome 20 years ago". Ouch!

Anonymous said...

YES. There is an overwhelming scientific consensus, based on incontrovertible evidence, that HIV exists and is the cause of AIDS.

WHERE ?

BD said...

I'll presume that your Google is broken, and point you here to start reading up on the abundance of evidence showing HIV is the cause of AIDS: http://www.aidstruth.org/denialism/myths#m1

Anonymous said...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

Anonymous said...

You've presumed wrong. My google is fine why even now I've just googled "scientific proof hiv causes aids" There is no single scientific paper that proves HIV causes AIDS. You can't find it in pubmed either. If you have looked at http://www.virusmyth.com/ you would know this.
Also google this "heteresexual aids epidemic over.

BD said...

It's funny, but when you google the exact phrase you suggest, the first result is a page that contains the phrase you quote:

There is no single scientific paper that proves HIV causes AIDS.

followed immediately by this sentence which you seem to have missed:

Instead there are tens of thousands of papers containing a wide range of evidence that, taken together, make the case overwhelming.

While your google might be fine, there's a clear problem with your reading.

Anonymous said...

Yes you are right it does say thousands now show me where they show ONE?
If you go here http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/kmforeword.htm
And read Kary Mullis story, if he can't find it I'm sure you or I can't either.
You've conveniently missed my other google http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/threat-of-world-aids-pandemic-among-heterosexuals-is-over-report-admits-842478.html
If it ain't sexually transmitted what else is wrong? What other lies have we been fed?

BD said...

This is stupid.

1. We've covered the issue of evidence i.e. there is a vast raft of different kinds of research which, accumulatively, makes the case for the link overwhelming. You can't accept the existence of that research and simultaneously dismiss it because it doesn't come in the form of ONE handy (capitalised) summary paper. Furthermore, any effective critique or rebuttal of that research cannot take the form of anecdote.

2. The story in The Independent does not challenge the idea of sexual transmission, or cite any research making that argument. In fact, the story suggests how different kinds of sexual behaviour (sex workers, men who have sex with men, overlapping sexual partnerships) create the conditions for the heightened spread of the disease.

I can't imagine for a second, though, that any of this is going to change your mind.

Anonymous said...

1. If there is evidence that HIV causes AIDS, there should be scientific documents which either singly or collectively demonstrate that fact, at least with a high probability. There is no such document.
2. If it was anything like they said it was we would be tripping over aids victims. THEY WERE WRONG. These have said this all along http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index.htm
Also check "the padian study 1997" Even the condom adverts no longer mention hiv.
Course if you want to believe the criminal big pharma when there are at least 2600 (last count) academics many with advanced degrees and prof emeritiuses http://rethinkingaids.com/
I can't stop you

Anonymous said...

1 When has an antibody ever needed medical intervention? Never

2 What disease has a latent period of 2 to 3 years? There ain't one. Never mind 2 to 3 years and then 5 and then 10 and then 30 and then back to 10.

3 What disease attacks mainly men, gay or otherwise? There ain't one

4 What disease, or type of disease attacks gay men and iv users in the west and everyone across the board in sub saharan africa? There ain't one. There might be two different diseases.

5 Out of the thousands of retroviruses that have been documented, what one has ever done any harm to man or animal? There ain't one.

6 Where is the scientific proof that hiv causes aids? There ain't none.

7 What previous disease has been responsible for 29 different disease (29 at the last count!) .There ain't one.

8 How many health or lab workers have caught fully blown aids from a contaminated needle? There ain't any.

9 Alright then, what is the scientific proof that hiv causes aids. There isn't any.

What is guaranteed to cause anyone to die with the exact same identical symptoms of fully blown aids? The treatment, AZT kills T cells, red blood cells and B cells at a dna level. But don't worry, because now they only put a tiny bit in. And the patients are living longer.

Anonymous said...

Isn't it time you got some new material?

http://denyingaids.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-aids-denialism-can-kill-you-part-ii.html?showComment=1251792194989#c7967169085743901426

buskerbob said...

Thanks for that, didn't even know they put it up here is my response
Sorry for the late post thought I had been censored.
1. Are you telling me you treat the syphillis antibody and not the syphillis?
2. Google "syphilis incubation period"
3. Any disease passed sexually must surely infect women and men equally
4. You are right it is hard to explain
5. You've got me there. No doubt you can point me to some scientific proof.
6.If there is evidence that HIV causes AIDS, there should be scientific documents which either singly or collectively demonstrate that fact, at least with a high probability. There is no such document.
7.You are right aids isn't a disease. And, prior to hiv, there never has been a pathogen/virus etc responsible for 29 diseases
8. So name one. Shouldn't be so difficult after 25 yrs.
9. Are you trying to tell me AZT isn't one of, if not, the most toxic drug ever prescribed...
post note...How to tell a denialist. It's easy; instead of debating like: I disagree with you because...They use sarcasm and call you inbred and incidentally I don't know who cleetus is as I don't watch tv

buskerbob said...

BD said...
This is stupid...
25 years and billions of dollars would generate a lot of paperwork yet no one can cite the scientific publications that prove HIV to be the cause of AIDS; propose a mechanism by which HIV is supposed to kill CD4 T-cells; explain why “viral load” does not correlate with CD4 levels and why neither correlates with clinical progression. All they can do is character assasinate

Derek said...

Wow. It's all a huge lie! It's a conspiracy! The government is hiding the truth from us, every administration from Reagan to Obama, even though they couldn't agree on anything else! Who knows what they're hiding in Area 51?!? No, I can't justify any of these claims -- that's how I know they're true!

Jaysus. This whole comment thread has turned crackpot day at the Hyde Park soapbox. It's one big billboard for Occam's Razor.

BD said...

Buskerbob: No censorship. Blogger handles comments in its own sweet time; I was asleep.

I disagree with you because you refuse to recognise the answers to your questions which have been put in front of your face. I disagree with you because you refuse to address mountains of research which contradicts you and wave ignorance as a shield against criticism. I disagree with you because you prefer conspiracy theory to science. I disagree with you because you ask questions without the slightest good faith in listening to the answers.

Derek:

It's one big billboard for Occam's Razor.

BUT WHAT'S HIDING BEHIND THE BILLBOARD!!??!!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Charles Barry said...

In response to a few posts by "Anonymous":

1 When has an antibody ever needed medical intervention? Never

-Correct! No antibody has or ever will need medical intervention. Not that has anything to do with HIV/AIDS at all.

2 What disease has a latent period of 2 to 3 years? There ain't one. Never mind 2 to 3 years and then 5 and then 10 and then 30 and then back to 10.

-Huntingdon's Disease has a latent period of 35-40 years.

3 What disease attacks mainly men, gay or otherwise? There ain't one

-There's no disease that attacks gay men specifically. That's ridiculous to say so. However, there are plenty of diseases which attack men more than women. Testicular cancer for one.

4 What disease, or type of disease attacks gay men and iv users in the west and everyone across the board in sub saharan africa? There ain't one. There might be two different diseases.

-Well I guess any disease qualifies under that criterion. The common cold, lung cancer, athlete's foot all attack gay men and people in sub-saharan africa. In fact they attack everyone.

5 Out of the thousands of retroviruses that have been documented, what one has ever done any harm to man or animal? There ain't one.

-Mammary cancer in mice is caused by retroviruses. Leukaemia is caused by retroviruses. Hepatitis B is caused by retroviruses.

6 Where is the scientific proof that hiv causes aids? There ain't none.

-Read this article. Read the other articles referenced in its bibliography at the end.
http://bret.mc.vanderbilt.edu/microbiology/html/Fauci_2003.pdf

7 What previous disease has been responsible for 29 different disease (29 at the last count!) .There ain't one.

-Pneumonia, the flu, common cold all qualify under this criterion. Also almost every type of cancer there is all comes from the same 'disease' - cell disfunction.

8 How many health or lab workers have caught fully blown aids from a contaminated needle? There ain't any.

-Read this article. It proves the link between contaminated needles and AIDS, by showing that when you provide clean needles, AIDS prevalence drops. http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/271/2/115

9 Alright then, what is the scientific proof that hiv causes aids. There isn't any.

-I don't know? All these dead people? http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~ces/natureHIV.pdf

I think it is safe to conclude from points 1 through 9 that "Anonymous" doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to any disease, let alone HIV/AIDS.

All the articles found for this post were done so at the drop of a hat by using google scholar search. I recommend "Anonymous" gets off his arse and does some serious thinking about his lifestyle choices before he opens his mouth again.

Derek said...

BD:
Derek:
It's one big billboard for Occam's Razor.

BUT WHAT'S HIDING BEHIND THE BILLBOARD!!??!!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.


OMG, you just blew my mind! ;->

Anonymous said...

1. If you find the antibody and no pathogen/virus then it's antibody job done, thank you patient have a nice day. At least that was how it was.
2. And is Huntingdons disease caused by a virus?
3.a I said men! gay or otherwise not gay men
3b "That's ridiculous to say so".I'm glad you agree it is ridiculous but that's how it is hiv aids is confined to mainly gay men and iv users.(Except Africa of course)
3c Right again, women don't get testicular cancer that's because they have no testicles.
4.hiv has remained in the same high risk group, yet in Africa it affects men women and children indiscriminately. Can't you see something wrong here?
Also from the WHO "In the US, the rate of infection among men in Washington DC is well over 100 times higher than in North Dakota, the region with the lowest rate. That is in one country. How do you explain such differences?"
5.I won't argue that one.
6. Have you read that? Because I can't find any proof in it.
Every scientist must surely want the Nobel. All one has to do is to demonstrate how hiv causes aids. In 25 years no such person has come forward.
7.OK what germ/pathogen/virus/retrovirus has been responsible for 29 diseases.Make it easier take 3: TB, Kaposis Sarcoma and Dementia.
8. Link don't work. I repeat name one, shouldn't be hard. You can include health workers, hospital staff, policemen anyone you want.
9. AZT has killed a lot of people (indisputable).
10. Btw hiv does not fulfill Koch's postulates (laws of virology) and I believe there is a problem with Farr's law (epidemiology)

buskerbob said...

A $1,000,000 Reward for Scientific Proof of HIV
The pH Miracle Living Foundation
In cooperation with
Alive & Well

OFFERS

A $1,000,000 Fact Finder Award
Find One Study, Save Countless Lives
A Non-profit Education, Research and Support Network
Offers Money in Exchange for Missing Science
http://www.phmiracleliving.com
Tel 760 751 8321
Go4it guys lol

buskerbob said...

Everything the government tells you is true.Everything you see on the tv is true. The medical industrial complex only has your best interests at heart. Have a happy life, don't forget your swine flu shots, I'm outta here

Charles Barry said...

I shouldn't be engaging with Anonymous, but I'm bored so here goes.

1) This doesn’t make any sense, so I won’t answer it.
2) “And is Huntingdons disease caused by a virus?”

-You said disease, not virus. But anyhow, the point about HIV leading to AIDS is that it isn't HIV that kills you, it's the pneumonia or whatever that infects you from too low levels of white blood cells, so trying to compare it to another virus is wrong. Instead compare to people with bone marrow failure or people who have been exposed to excessive levels of radiation.

3b) is a casual stereotype that shows you haven't understood any of the evidence placed before you.
3c) Women can't get testicular cancer (obviously, but it is a disease that is biased towards men/women, thus disproving your statement that no such diseases exist).

4) “hiv has remained in the same high risk group, yet in Africa it affects men women and children indiscriminately. Can't you see something wrong here?”

-Yes, from my understanding it's called crap government and the church. In south africa both have conspired to avoid open discussion of HIV/AIDS, have discouraged the use of condoms, have done nothing to dispell ancient myths (that AIDS is what sinners get) and instead promoted stupid ideas such as sexual abstinence.
Gay men are not more at high risk than straight men, although I do accept that IV users are at higher risk from blood transfusion.

4) "Also from the WHO "In the US, the rate of infection among men in Washington DC is well over 100 times higher than in North Dakota, the region with the lowest rate. That is in one country. How do you explain such differences?""

-Uhm people in more densely populated areas fuck more? How much more obvious does it have to be??

6) Actually you haven't read the article. I also said read the references before coming back, something you didn't do.
Surely this paragraph answers your question: "In 1983, experimental data indicating an association between a retrovirus and AIDS were published by a research team in France led by Luc Montagnier. In 1984, the French group and researchers at the US National Institutes of Health, led by Robert C. Gallo, published seminal papers that established, with virological and epidemiological evidence, that the virus now known as HIV was the cause of AIDS. The virus was also isolated independently by Jay Levy in California from both individuals affected with AIDS and asymptomatic individuals from groups at high risk for AIDS."
Linked in that paragraph are 4 references to other scientific papers. I suggest if you want to learn in detail, follow those.

7) That’s such a stupid comment. Re number 2, HIV doesn't cause "29 diseases", those 29 diseases cause themselves. Just the body can no longer fight back, thanks to HIV. As for dementia, that's brain damage caused by no disease, instead degeneration of the brain. TB is caused by a bacterial infection. Kaposi's sarcoma is caused by a herpes virus. AIDS can 'cause' many diseases, just like serious cancer or radiation poisoning 'cause' secondary diseases.

8)This website provides some clear statistics on the subject: http://www.avert.org/needlestick.htm
This is a newspaper report from 1987: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1291&dat=19870521&id=re4PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vo0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3950,6666679

9) “AZT has killed a lot of people (indisputable).” -Yes, so has chemotherapy. So has Paracetemol, so has Aspirin, so has virtually any drug out there. So what??

10) HIV does fufill Koch's postulates, if you scrap rule 1 which was abandoned by Koch himself, as he found that Cholera doesn’t exist under that rule. This scientific article proves there isn't a problem with Farr's law for HIV. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2308183

Anyhow, to come to a close. The most important point is point number 6. If you don't read any of the above, except for one, read point number 6.

Anonymous said...

No6 first
"We can be exposed to HIV many times without being ... infected," says Dr Luc Montagnier, the Nobel prize-winning virologist credited with the co-discovery of HIV. "Our immune system creates [antibodies] within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system."
See for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKyIBYKoT20
As for Gallo:
http://www.vitalisnews.com/aids_fraud.htm
or here: http://www.otherhealth.com/homeopathy-list-discussion/10191-re-aids-fraud-press-release.html
Semmelweis Society Endorses Scientists' Call for Science to RETRACT Fraudulent Reports on HIV http://rethinkingaids.com/
Not very much up to date are you Charles.

Anonymous said...

1.You don't understand, never mind
2. Let me reiterate: what germ or virus hides undetected in the body for up to 30 years and then causes a disease. Remeber HIV is not detectable, only the antibody.
3. Start again, cancer is not a contagious disease
4. So cold, lung cancer and athletes foot only attack gay men and iv users in the west but everyone else in Africa?
7. Can we get away from radiation sickness and cancer and stick with contagious diseases please.
8. I did say fully blown aids,look again at your own refernces and tell me where it says anyone has caught fully blown aids.I also asked you, or anyone else, to name just one.
9.So aspirin and paracetemol kills with the exact same identical symptoms of fully blown aids? Because that's what AZT does.
10. Yeah right, scrap the first postulate, very scientific, problem is there is another 3 http://www.duesberg.com/papers/ch2.html
and farrs law:http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:5VA16ClSxO0J:www.virusmyth.com/aids/reappraising/1992-06.pdf+farr's+law+and+aids+site:virusmyth.com&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
Charles mate, go back to being bored

buskerbob said...

BD says
I disagree with you because you refuse to recognise the answers to your questions...Excuse me what answers? I started by asking where is the clinical proof, the evidence. Everybody keeps saying there's mountains of it. So where is it? Make it easier,break it down,how does hiv kill t cells This from NIAID website...Most scientists THINK that HIV causes AIDS by directly inducing the death of CD4+ T cells or interfering with their normal function...They think? They don't know?
Another cracker from the same website under proof hiv causes aids...postulate one...VIRTUALLY all AIDS patients are HIV-seropositive. Or in other words" It fulfills the postulate because it nearly does!!! 2+2 nearly equals 5 but that doesn't make it so, not in science it don't.
http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/topics/HIVAIDS/Understanding/howHIVCausesAIDS/HIVcausesAIDS.htm
I came here in good faith trying to warn you that we are being lied to big time. I did not come here to score cheap points or to make anyone look silly.Mind you with answers like this:-Uhm people in more densely populated areas fuck more? How much more obvious does it have to be??...I wouldn't have to try too hard.

buskerbob said...

Lets try another tack: These are the people who are behind hiv aids scam http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dDocName=CON014155&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased
and:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125190160702979723.html
In a word: Criminals.Course most of the time they just settle a few million and don't accept liablity.
Now look at the Board of Directors of the Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis:http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/data2/raboard.htm
and tell me what's wrong with them!

BD said...

"I came here in good faith trying to warn you that we are being lied to big time."

If we point you towards web pages which clearly list research papers containing clinical evidence, then you deny that those research papers exist, we cannot pretend for a second that this conversation is taking place in "good faith."

The fact that you, personally, do not agree with the scientific consensus is not proof that the consensus is based in flawed reasoning or conspiracy.

buskerbob said...

You pointed me towards avert aidstruth which quotes niaid.I have studied them in detail. I don't deny they exist I say they are both full of crap:
koch's postulates 1.The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy animals.(wikipedia)
Note the all bit, all is unambigous, it means without exception, it doesn't say virtually all. It doesn't say all but there may be exceptions.It says ALL. Secondly, it says in abundance. Niaid and avert conveniently don't mention that bit, hardly surprising since they can't even find the virus; only the antibody. This from avert under koch one but... "this is essentially a definition of HIV-free AIDS".Followed by 2 paragraphs of bullshit as they try to talk their way out of it. Have YOU read it by the way? Koch 2 they mention polymerse chain (pcr) did you know that was what Kary Mullis invented and won his Nobel for? Did you look at that link I gave you to K Mullis?
How about the MHRA report on GSK or the Pfizer criminal conviction? Have you looked at the Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis? What about Gallo's fraudulent papers? You surely must have looked at the Luc Montagnier link? That comes from House of Numbers. Remember House of Numbers? I'm not surprised you haven't responded to any of that. You ain't got an argument, you or Charles.

buskerbob said...

BD says:That comments thread still going strong: AIDS denialist ignores all evidence, declares: "I came here in good faith..
The problem here is that you don't know what you are talking about. You take the word of some website without studying it or questioning it, then when I give you some links you totally ignore them and then accuse me of ignoring the evidence.Your best bet, instead of boasting to your twitter friends, is to keep quiet and try and hide your ignorance.

BD said...

I think I'll just refer you to this and call it a night. I'm not prepared to give you the credence of engaging with this flood of non-sequiturs and canards.

Post a Comment